[16:01:29] <XeryusTC> ! -- LOG START --
[16:01:40] <Purno> >
[16:01:48] <@Hyronymus> that's smart, XeryusTC :)
[16:01:50] <@Hyronymus> ok
[16:02:00] <@Hyronymus> I'm the chairman of this meeting
[16:02:13] <@Hyronymus> that means I can appoint someone to make minutes
[16:02:19] <@Hyronymus> unless someone volunteers
[16:02:24] <@Hyronymus> anyone?
[16:02:33] <Purno> [15:58:24] Purno: I guess I could try if no-one volunteers
[16:02:33] <Purno> [15:58:32] Purno: but don't let me do it if it's important
[16:02:52] <@Hyronymus> ok, Purno is our minute maker
[16:03:06] <Purno> !I guess I can do that afterwards via the logs?
[16:03:14] <@Hyronymus> you can look at old minutes on the project website for 'guidance', Purno
[16:03:21] <@Hyronymus> and yes, you can use the logs
[16:03:25] <Purno> !I can try indeed
[16:03:31] <@Hyronymus> a few rules to keep things tidy:
[16:03:36] <@Hyronymus> > if you wanna say something (wait for your turn), < if you don't wanna say it anymore. ~ if you finished saying it, and ! if you really need to say something important quickly
[16:04:03] <@Hyronymus> so if you're done talking add a ~
[16:04:15] <@Hyronymus> and a > if you want something to add
[16:04:20] <Purno> !also at !s?~
[16:04:33] <@Hyronymus> don't worry if you forget it, there is a small crowd :P
[16:04:56] <@Hyronymus> Let's proceed to the first agenda point
[16:05:03] <azzaz> >
[16:05:10] <@Hyronymus> yes, azzaz
[16:05:12] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:05:20] <azzaz> do we have enough for quorum? ~
[16:05:46] <@Hyronymus> for quorum?~
[16:06:02] <XeryusTC> ! what's quorum? ~
[16:06:28] <azzaz> well with most meeting you need a certain number of people in order for votes to count as policy ~
[16:06:42] <@Hyronymus> ah, like that
[16:06:50] <@Hyronymus> we had a consensus rule of 75%
[16:06:54] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:07:06] <Purno> >
[16:07:17] <@Hyronymus> Purno~
[16:07:22] <Purno> 75% of what?~
[16:07:55] <XeryusTC> ! people taking activilly part i guess ~
[16:07:56] <@Hyronymus> 75% of the active members in the meeting. That are azzaz, you, XeryusTC and me~
[16:08:03] <Purno> >
[16:08:07] <@Hyronymus> Purno~
[16:08:29] <Purno> So it doesn't count if 'important' peeps are not at the meeting? That's just bad luck for them? ~
[16:08:58] <@Hyronymus> yes, indeed. This meeting was postponed with 1 week but it was announced orderly
[16:09:07] <@Hyronymus> if people aren't here it's 'tough'~
[16:09:14] <@Hyronymus> >
[16:09:31] <Purno> !you're chairman, don't do ~and > if no-one else wants to talk ;)
[16:09:52] <@Hyronymus> besides, the only coder we have left was Hellfire and I don't think he would complain much in the end
[16:09:52] <Purno> ~
[16:09:59] <@Hyronymus> ok, let's get rolling
[16:10:00] <@Hyronymus> 1. Start meeting
[16:10:01] <@Hyronymus> 1a. Pick a chairman and a minutes man
[16:10:01] <@Hyronymus> 1b. Discuss minutes of previous meeting
[16:10:14] <@Hyronymus> we done that now up to 1b
[16:10:25] <@Hyronymus> did anyone actually read the last minutes?~
[16:10:31] <Purno> ! not me
[16:10:38] <Purno> ~
[16:10:43] <XeryusTC> ! me neither
[16:10:48] <azzaz> ! yes, but i've probably forgotten them ~
[16:11:18] <@Hyronymus> ok, well. As both XeryusTC and azzaz are new I wondered what relevance they had anyhow
[16:11:37] <@Hyronymus> does anyone oppose to moving on?~
[16:11:50] <Purno> !not me~
[16:12:31] <XeryusTC> !me neither
[16:12:39] <@Hyronymus> azzaz, you?~
[16:12:52] <azzaz> ! no, lets move on ~
[16:13:04] <@Hyronymus> ok
[16:13:06] <@Hyronymus> 2a. Coding - Design Document - Commenting Part 3
[16:13:21] <@Hyronymus> I believe azzaz has been reading this document lately
[16:13:43] <@Hyronymus> anything you find remarkable that hasn't to do with file formats, azzaz~
[16:13:45] <Purno> > 
[16:13:48] <@Hyronymus> Purno
[16:14:17] <Purno> Does the Design Document mention waht different track types (railroad types) are gonna be included, and if not, should the Design Document mention those?~
[16:14:29] <Purno> !can't remember I saw tehm~
[16:14:53] <@Hyronymus> what do you think, azzaz~
[16:15:01] <azzaz> ! the DD mentions that tracks have different quality, and certain trains can go on only certain ones and those better than that
[16:15:16] <azzaz> apart from that, is there anything you had in mind Purno? ~
[16:15:43] <Purno> ! is anything like monorail/maglev whatever mentioned there, and should it be mentioned?~
[16:16:26] <azzaz> I'm not sure Purno. I think so? ~
[16:16:29] <@Hyronymus> !
[16:16:54] <Purno> !Hyro, you mean >?~
[16:17:09] <@Hyronymus> no,hang on
[16:17:48] <@Hyronymus> I think the different qualities mean different characterics actually. One charactarsistic could be track with wooden sleepers.Another characteristic could be  track with concrete sleepers + catenary
[16:18:05] <Purno> > 
[16:18:06] <@Hyronymus> so the characteristics leave space for multiple 'track types'~
[16:18:09] <@Hyronymus> Purno
[16:19:18] <Purno> But ordinary trains can drive over those track types you mentioned, those are connectable. But monorail/maglev is a completely seperate system. What about those? Shouldn't those be mentioned? Also, shouldn't it already be defined what track types exactly are gonna be included, so perhaps artists can start working on them, or sth?~
[16:19:31] <@Hyronymus> No
[16:19:47] <Purno> !what no? I asked 3 questions...~
[16:19:50] <@Hyronymus> they are mentioned by the line "certain trains can go on only certain ones and those better than that"
[16:20:07] <azzaz> >
[16:20:07] <@Hyronymus> please have some patience, I cannot type long lines in 3 seconds
[16:20:11] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[16:20:44] <azzaz> perhaps they should be split as a seperate system, much like busses, aircraft and the like?
[16:20:47] <azzaz> ~
[16:21:05] <Purno> >
[16:21:08] <@Hyronymus> Purno
[16:22:02] <Purno> If normal railroads are being divided in 'bad' and 'good' tracks (additional features like catenary and such), will monorail/maglev/whatever also be divided in seperate subcategories with different qualities or sth?~
[16:23:01] <azzaz> ! it would borrow its stats from normal railroads, so yes ~
[16:23:41] <@Hyronymus> does that answer your question, Purno?~
[16:25:08] <Purno> !not really. That'd mean it's possible, but that doesn't mean it would actually have that. But perhaps a 'complete' system of railraod types should be worked on at the forums and being discusses at next meeting once it has been worked on, in stead of discussing it now? I think it might be nice discussing it at the forums tho, or is it too early in development-stage for that? Whatcha think?~
[16:25:33] <@Hyronymus> Not too early I think
[16:25:34] <azzaz> >
[16:25:36] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[16:26:03] <azzaz> I think its the perfect time, we really need "structures" ~
[16:26:09] <Purno> >
[16:26:11] <@Hyronymus> Purno
[16:26:33] <Purno> So, would it be a good idea if I started some setup of railway types and post it on the forum for discussion?~
[16:26:52] <@Hyronymus> yes, but only railway types is too narrow
[16:27:02] <@Hyronymus> roads can have different qualities too
[16:27:12] <Purno> >
[16:27:15] <@Hyronymus> Purno
[16:27:23] <azzaz> ! Yes! both static data (weight, year) and dynamic data (position, cargo, etc)
[16:27:41] <azzaz> we really need those to define the structres in the programming ~
[16:27:47] <Purno> you can even have different types of road (motorways and such). Besides, I guess the same goes for canals/rivers?~
[16:28:05] <@Hyronymus> yes, canals rivers too
[16:28:14] <@Hyronymus> the air is the only unified thing :P
[16:28:17] <Purno> !I'll see if I can do some work on it~
[16:28:28] <@Hyronymus> ok
[16:28:44] <@Hyronymus> was there anything else regardring the Design Document?~
[16:28:53] <azzaz> >
[16:29:03] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[16:29:17] <azzaz> are we going to complete it, or do it on the fly? ~
[16:29:39] <@Hyronymus> completing it is hard I think, definetly with more new faces than old faces
[16:29:56] <@Hyronymus> my guess it we'll do it on the fly
[16:29:58] <@Hyronymus> UNLESS
[16:30:17] <@Hyronymus> there are very serious points you spotted already, like file formats
[16:30:27] <@Hyronymus> but I have that under agenda point 4a.
[16:30:28] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:30:56] <@Hyronymus> ! :o forgot to show the agenda
[16:30:59] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:31:12] <azzaz> >
[16:31:16] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[16:31:42] <azzaz> there are a number of things that are unclear in the DD and its hard to program it without knowing exactly what they mean
[16:31:54] <azzaz> otherwise time will be wasted coding ~
[16:32:19] <@Hyronymus> can you specify those things on the forum in the coming week?!
[16:32:19] <XeryusTC> ! azzaz: you got a page number?
[16:32:38] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:32:40] <azzaz> ! XeryusTC: I have a long list... ~
[16:32:58] <azzaz> ! Hyronumus: yes I can do that ~
[16:33:01] <XeryusTC> ! azzaz: just give me one thing that was unclear, maybe i can figure it out
[16:33:08] <XeryusTC> ~
[16:33:42] <azzaz> ! PM, or here? ~
[16:34:14] <XeryusTC> ! doesn't matter ~
[16:34:26] <@Hyronymus> I think this is smart to do:
[16:34:51] <@Hyronymus> azzaz posts his list on the forums and azzaz and XeryusTC divide the list in 2
[16:35:15] <@Hyronymus> then if you really can't get a grasp at it you'll ask the other forum members
[16:35:29] <@Hyronymus> steve and eis_os will most likely be available for replying
[16:35:32] <@Hyronymus> and zuu~
[16:36:12] <azzaz> ! i agree ~
[16:36:21] <XeryusTC> ! good idea ~
[16:36:27] <@Hyronymus> I know :D~
[16:37:16] <@Hyronymus> shall I move on then?
[16:37:18] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:37:32] <azzaz> ! yes ~
[16:37:45] <@Hyronymus> Purno,XeryusTC?
[16:37:57] <@Hyronymus> no objections to moving on?!~
[16:38:00] <XeryusTC> ! fine with me ~
[16:38:17] <@Hyronymus> ok, that's a majority
[16:38:17] <Purno> !fine~
[16:38:18] <@Hyronymus> :P
[16:38:20] <@Hyronymus> 2b. Coding - Launch 'Core Engine Developers'-team
[16:38:26] <@Hyronymus> let me ask this first
[16:38:53] <@Hyronymus> do azzaz and XeryusTC have access to this section: http://tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=43
[16:38:56] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:39:14] <XeryusTC> no
[16:39:20] <Purno> !I don't, waht is it?~
[16:39:29] <azzaz> ! if thats the coders forum, then yes ~
[16:39:35] <@Hyronymus> it is, azzaz
[16:39:45] <XeryusTC> ! i only have acces to general and development, but I can't post in the last one
[16:39:50] <@Hyronymus> do you 'want' access there too, XeryusTC
[16:39:53] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:40:18] <XeryusTC> ! yes ~
[16:40:42] <@Hyronymus> ok, I'll contact Helffire for that so he can setup access for you~
[16:40:45] <@Hyronymus> Purno
[16:40:54] <azzaz> >
[16:40:57] <@Hyronymus> It's only coding stuff there
[16:41:07] <Purno> !ok, don't think I got anything to add there~
[16:41:14] <@Hyronymus> I don't have access there if I wasn't a TE mod~
[16:41:16] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[16:41:34] <azzaz> how active is Hellfire? ~
[16:41:55] <@Hyronymus> not too active but he replies to emails quick
[16:42:03] <@Hyronymus> I think he has a full-time job now
[16:42:06] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:42:24] <azzaz> ! thanks ~
[16:43:06] <@Hyronymus> he seems to be 'Junior Engineer'~
[16:43:22] <@Hyronymus> I don't have much to say about this agenda topic
[16:43:32] <azzaz> >
[16:43:32] <@Hyronymus> I'm a total noob at advanced coding
[16:43:34] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[16:43:46] <azzaz> We need a Core Engine Dev team ~
[16:44:19] <@Hyronymus> I thought Hellfire and uzurpator were that team
[16:44:42] <@Hyronymus> I'll mention it in the email and ask him to assign you to that team
[16:44:54] <@Hyronymus> do you want to be in that team too, XeryusTC
[16:44:55] <@Hyronymus> ~
[16:45:22] <XeryusTC> ! i could join the core team, but i won't dev very much as i'm occupied with TRoS too ~
[16:45:38] <XeryusTC> ! i'll try to devide my time though ~
[16:46:04] <@Hyronymus> :) We can always admit you and see how things go, right
[16:46:25] <azzaz> >
[16:46:32] <@Hyronymus> if it turns out you are too occupied by TRoS you can always step down~
[16:46:34] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[16:47:07] <azzaz> The TRoS graphics engine would be nice for TE, so you could perhaps be the graphics engine dev.? ~
[16:49:08] <@Hyronymus> XeryusTC
[16:49:22] <XeryusTC> i don't have much knowledge about the graphics stuff in the TRoS engine (aka Tezuka) as i am more a server dev
[16:49:38] <XeryusTC> i mostly do some algoritms and network stuff
[16:50:43] <azzaz> ! so just contribute what you can I guess? ~
[16:51:14] <XeryusTC> yes, but i will see into the graphics stuff too soon
[16:51:29] <@Hyronymus> !that sounds fair
[16:51:36] <XeryusTC> as i do need to add stuff to our client too ;)
[16:52:11] <@Hyronymus> ok
[16:52:21] <@Hyronymus> I'll write Hellfire an email then
[16:52:29] <@Hyronymus> anything more to discuss?~
[16:53:17] <XeryusTC> ! not for this point ~
[16:53:19] <azzaz> ! not from me ~
[16:54:03] <Purno> !nopes~
[16:54:29] <@Hyronymus> something else related to the Core Engine you wanted to discuss, XeryusTC~
[16:54:44] <XeryusTC> ! no ~
[16:55:13] <@Hyronymus> I suggest we move on then the next agenda point then
[16:55:24] <@Hyronymus> 3. New Project Objectives
[16:55:30] <@Hyronymus> 3a. Fileformat for object descrepion data: tab-files, XML, ...
[16:55:41] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[16:55:49] <@Hyronymus> the channel is yours :)~
[16:56:05] <azzaz> ! I'm sure we have all seen the forum, right? ~
[16:56:14] <@Hyronymus> yes, I have seen it~
[16:56:18] <Purno> !me too~
[16:56:23] <XeryusTC> ! yes, i even made some replies ;) ~
[16:56:50] <azzaz> Well are there any preferences? ~
[16:57:15] <azzaz> Options are:
[16:57:18] <azzaz> 1. XML
[16:57:25] <azzaz> 2. Tab Delimited File
[16:57:31] <azzaz> 3. INI file
[16:57:38] <azzaz> 4. All of the above
[16:57:45] <azzaz> ~
[16:57:50] <@Hyronymus> >
[16:57:50] <XeryusTC> ! 5. Script file
[16:58:00] <azzaz> Yes that too ~
[16:58:00] <Purno> >
[16:58:04] <azzaz> Hyronymus
[16:58:11] <XeryusTC> >
[16:58:18] <@Hyronymus> I believe Civ4 uses XML and script files (Python script)
[16:58:26] <@Hyronymus> is that possible for TE?~
[16:58:47] <azzaz> yes, but I dont know how complicated it would be to implement ~
[16:58:54] <azzaz> Purno
[16:59:05] <Purno> You want us to vote for one of the options, this meeting?~
[16:59:31] <azzaz> Yes, at the end of discussion ~
[16:59:38] <azzaz> XeryusTC
[17:00:15] <XeryusTC> i think we should look at the advantages and disadvantages before deciding which one (or combination) to take
[17:00:28] <Purno> >
[17:00:45] <azzaz> Purno, anything to add to XeryusTC's comment?
[17:01:00] <@Hyronymus> ! XeryusTC, please add a ~ when you're done
[17:01:02] <@Hyronymus> ~
[17:01:07] <XeryusTC> ~
[17:01:26] <Purno> ehm... kinda. I just wated to say I can't really compare all those options, since I've only seen examples of INI files and XML~
[17:01:46] <XeryusTC> ! i was thinking if i needed to sum some advantages/disadvantages of some of those formats
[17:01:55] <Purno> >
[17:02:17] <azzaz> XeryusTC: Perhaps we could discuss them now? ~
[17:02:20] <azzaz> Purno
[17:02:39] <XeryusTC> ! it's fine with me, shall i start? ~
[17:03:01] <azzaz> XeryusTC: if Purno has nothing to add, then yes ~
[17:03:27] <Purno> IMO it's pretty useles to describe some of those. You need to do them all, if you wanna compare them all to each other. Perhaps something like we ducht call a multi-criterea-analyse (dunno what's the english word, but I bet Hyro knows) can be set up?~
[17:03:42] <Purno> !Dutch*~
[17:04:07] <XeryusTC> ! i know most advantages and disadvantages of those file types :) ~
[17:04:12] <@Hyronymus> >
[17:04:30] <azzaz> I think everything comes down to how hard is it for the graphics designer to learn
[17:04:36] <azzaz> Hyronymus
[17:04:43] <@Hyronymus> I suggest XeryusTC starts, I believe we know what TE should be doing~
[17:04:58] <azzaz> Yes, XeryusTC continue ~
[17:05:10] <XeryusTC> ! ok, i'll start then
[17:05:53] <XeryusTC> first is XML, it is very flexible and easy to understand for people, it is very likely that people will create 3rd party programs for it which is a good thing in most cases
[17:06:53] <XeryusTC> the disadvantage is that most parsers are quite slow, i had a program that parsed about 10 000 - 100 000 entries (i don't remember the exact amount) in about 15-20 second, but it could also be that Qt was the bottleneck
[17:07:19] <azzaz> ! if we keep the variations, then tinyXML is the way to go ~
[17:07:36] <azzaz> ! i mean if the variations arent too exotic ~
[17:08:07] <@Hyronymus> ! http://www.grinninglizard.com/tinyxml/
[17:08:11] <@Hyronymus> ~
[17:08:35] <XeryusTC> second is Tab Delimited File, they are less flexible as XML and also harder to understand, i wouldn't choose for this personally as you need to keep your format the same at all times or your parser is very likely to screw up
[17:09:43] <@Hyronymus> ! aren't tab delimited strictly adviced to be used for data gathering~
[17:09:46] <XeryusTC> tinyXML is very good, i used it once but there is a problem: you would need to check if tags do exist in the file or your program would crash because you would try to access the memory address 0, but it is very simple to use
[17:10:35] <azzaz> ! pre-parser? ~
[17:11:27] <XeryusTC> Hyronymus: i used TDF twice, one was a program that read settings from it, it is very hard to understand the actual read function and not very flexible, another was to read quotes from a file and print them at the screen in a random order
[17:12:09] <azzaz> ! This is only included because it was in the DD, I suggest we scrap this as an option completely ~
[17:12:33] <XeryusTC> i think that GRF is actually TD too, i don't know it for sure but as what i've seen on the forums
[17:12:47] <XeryusTC> any comments on what i just said or can i move on to the INI files?
[17:12:59] <@Hyronymus> ! INI~
[17:13:07] <azzaz> ! yes, next ~
[17:14:34] <XeryusTC> ok, third is INI then, i don't think this would be a very good option, it is about the same as XML although they are used to store simple data and aren't supposed to be of a dynamic format as we want to use
[17:15:15] <@Hyronymus> ! may I ask something~
[17:15:17] <XeryusTC> they are also less human readable than XML as they only include a header and variables that belong to a certain header
[17:15:22] <XeryusTC> go ahead
[17:15:41] <@Hyronymus> does this mean it's harder for people to create their own vehicles i.e.~
[17:16:14] <Purno> >
[17:16:31] <XeryusTC> no, it will be harder to make a program that can read/write them, you can't see if you just read the last header in the INI file
[17:16:49] <@Hyronymus> !ok~
[17:16:58] <XeryusTC> you can if you use XML, it has a parent-child system
[17:17:00] <XeryusTC> Purno
[17:17:24] <Purno> I've seen both examples of XML and INI, and AFAICT, INI is much easier to understand, and results in a better overview...~
[17:18:26] <XeryusTC> i don't agree, the OpenTTD configure file is of the ini format and it is really hard to find a specific patch option in it
[17:18:47] <XeryusTC> there are about 150 options in it and you will need to scroll the entire list
[17:18:57] <azzaz> ! could you elaborate? can we improve on it? ~
[17:19:18] <XeryusTC> while with XML you can just look up the child that holds the next child or the information that you want to have
[17:19:20] <Purno> >
[17:19:53] <XeryusTC> go ahead Purno
[17:21:09] <Purno> I don't know XML that well, but I don't understand why it would be anny better when as massive as the OpenTTD config file. I've edited ini files for Red Alert, they were massive and quite easy to understand. I haven't seen a big XML file tho. Besides, I don't know waht 'childs' are in XML. Never used it...~
[17:21:58] <XeryusTC> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=454245#454245 <- it looks very simple like this, but the amount of variables could become very long as you will have to add bounding boxes (for collision detection, crashes for example use them) and you also have to add other variables that could make it quite big
[17:22:11] <XeryusTC> Purno: i'll put a xml file up on my site :)
[17:22:32] <@Hyronymus> ! http://users2.tt-forums.net/hyronymus/files/CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml and http://users2.tt-forums.net/hyronymus/files/openttd.cfg ~
[17:23:17] <Purno> ! IMO the cfg file (=ini?) looks better~
[17:23:29] <@Hyronymus> >
[17:23:39] <XeryusTC> Hyronymus
[17:23:48] <@Hyronymus> the XML is more reading but it's much more clear what relates to what~
[17:24:17] <Purno> !whatcha mean? I don't think it's clear...~
[17:24:20] <XeryusTC> ! i'm having troubles viewing the xml with my browser so i can't decide if it is a good example
[17:25:15] <Purno> ! it looks like HTML, not very good overview IMO~
[17:25:54] <azzaz> ! the question in, would XML benefit us for what we are looking for in TE? ~
[17:26:04] <@Hyronymus> >
[17:26:06] <XeryusTC> Purno: it is inspired on HTML, but it is supose to act as a database and not as a markup language
[17:26:25] <XeryusTC> http://xeryustc.cjb.net/serverlog.xml is quite a good example of XML
[17:26:50] <XeryusTC> Hyronymus
[17:27:05] <@Hyronymus> I think it does work in a similar way as the Locomotion Tool did. That opened quite some world for people~
[17:28:13] <XeryusTC> how did that exactly work? fill in parameters in the tool and it converted it to XML and then to LoMo's format (IIRC)
[17:28:37] <@Hyronymus> ! exactly, but naturally the other way round too
[17:28:49] <@Hyronymus> LoMo data files were spit out in XML strings
[17:29:00] <@Hyronymus> any idiot can change values then~
[17:29:29] <@Hyronymus> ! as long as you use proper tags of course~
[17:29:46] <XeryusTC> indeed :)
[17:29:57] <XeryusTC> anyways, i think that is time to move on to scripted files
[17:30:19] <@Hyronymus> ! that's fine with me~
[17:30:27] <XeryusTC> Purno, azzaz?
[17:30:34] <Purno> ! sure ~
[17:30:34] <azzaz> ! yes ~
[17:30:39] <XeryusTC> ok
[17:30:53] <XeryusTC> scripted files are flexible, if done correctly that is
[17:31:35] <XeryusTC> if scripted files are done correctly it will be as flexible as XML, if they're done wrong they are as static as TDF
[17:31:56] <Purno> !brb, toilet~
[17:32:01] <@orudge> orudge is awake now.
[17:32:40] <XeryusTC> the best design for them would be to create an object with an ID given by the user or TE, i think that an ID by TE would be best as you can't get conflicting IDs
[17:32:48] <@Hyronymus> ! too late, orudge :P~
[17:33:02] <XeryusTC> orudge: logs will be available on my site after the meeting :)
[17:33:17] <@Hyronymus> >
[17:33:22] <XeryusTC> anyways, i'll move on
[17:33:58] <Purno> !back, but dinner in 10 mins :(~
[17:34:07] <XeryusTC> you can change/add settings to the object by calling corresponding functions in either the script file (general variables) or by TE (like parameters)
[17:34:50] <@Hyronymus> ! do you have an example perhaps?~
[17:35:09] <XeryusTC> another advantage is that the script language will allow you to let the object do a certain action when an event happens
[17:35:14] <XeryusTC> Hyronymus: comming up
[17:35:37] <XeryusTC> anyways, you could have certain train carriages roll over if a train crashes into another train
[17:36:03] <XeryusTC> or you could let a self dischargable hopper (for example) show an animation when it is unloading
[17:36:11] <Purno> >
[17:36:26] <XeryusTC> Purno
[17:36:46] <Purno> And that can't be done with the other options (XML, and such)? ~
[17:37:17] <XeryusTC> it is possible, but it will be alot harder
[17:38:57] <Purno> !bbl, dinner :( If there's votes while I'm away I vote for INI. Please also check http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=25673 and discuss if you think it needs discussin in the meeting. I'll let you know when I"m back~
[17:39:06] <@Hyronymus> ! as I said: Civ4 uses XML for unit/event data and Python for animation sequences. But now I remember RT2 had a world editor where you could deinfe events too, with IF...THEN, TRUE/FALSE statements~
[17:41:04] <XeryusTC> Hyronymus: http://xeryustc.cjb.net/login.lua <- it is something that is usable for TE although it isn't exactly the same as TE is going to need
[17:41:36] <XeryusTC> anyways, i'm done ~
[17:41:37] <@Hyronymus> ! lua, SimCity uses it
[17:42:07] <@Hyronymus> Can lua do all the things without the need of xml, ini or whatever?
[17:42:11] <@Hyronymus> ~
[17:42:41] <XeryusTC> yes
[17:43:36] <@Hyronymus> It's either XML or lua for me~
[17:43:54] <@Hyronymus> ~! doesn't lua have parsing problems?
[17:45:08] <azzaz> ! XeryusTC: whats your preference at the moment? ~
[17:45:24] <XeryusTC> lua doesn't have much problems, the biggest problem would be that a dev makes a bug in the C++ function
[17:45:34] <XeryusTC> azzaz: i prefer scripted, and then XML
[17:46:10] <azzaz> ! Hyronymus: Preference ordering? ~
[17:46:43] <@Hyronymus> ! if lua is easier than XML then lua, XML
[17:47:17] <azzaz> ! would they not be better used together, XML and Lua? ~
[17:48:53] <XeryusTC> we could do that, but it will probably be easier if we just stick to one format
[17:49:38] <azzaz> ! could you prepare a mock-up of Purnos data at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=454245#454245 using Lua? ~
[17:50:44] <XeryusTC> ok
[17:51:03] <@Hyronymus> >
[17:51:49] <@Hyronymus> shall we decide to go for XML or lua and make the final decision after the mock-up
[17:51:50] <@Hyronymus> !
[17:51:53] <@Hyronymus> *~
[17:52:04] <azzaz> >
[17:52:19] <@Hyronymus> azzaz
[17:52:47] <azzaz> I think we need to entertain Purno's idea too, we don't want to alienate potential devs cause its "too hard looking", etc
[17:52:50] <azzaz> so my proposal is
[17:53:12] <azzaz> we can create a program which can do the parsing for INI files into XML (or Lua)
[17:53:15] <azzaz> ~
[17:54:13] <@Hyronymus> but what would be the benefit then if in the end you'll be using XML nonetheless
[17:55:28] <@Hyronymus> ~
[17:55:30] <azzaz> ! INI is the past, XML is the present, Lua is the future. Doesn't mean we cant do backwards compatibility? ~
[17:56:20] <@Hyronymus> but isn't the chance for errors larger with so many parsers that eventually parse to one final file format that TE uses
[17:56:22] <@Hyronymus> ~
[17:56:40] <XeryusTC> ! azzaz: backwards compatibility would be the case if it was TE 2.0 ~
[17:57:28] <azzaz> ! Hydo: Yes thats true ~
[17:58:44] <@Hyronymus> so what's wise to do? Wait for the mock-up and add a poll?
[17:58:45] <azzaz> ! Lets vote on the idea of allowing INI files? ~
[17:58:52] <XeryusTC> ! http://xeryustc.cjb.net/mockup.lua <- same as Purno's, I've added mail though ~
[17:59:45] <azzaz> ! XeryusTC: I like the look of that!! ~
[17:59:52] <@Hyronymus> ! me too
[17:59:57] <XeryusTC> ! i think that we shouldn't support INI files, if people want to use those they can make their own converter, which is very unlikely as we are (probably) going to deliver a tool to make the files ~
[18:00:26] <azzaz> ! ahh yes that was going to be my next question, a tool to make the files ~
[18:01:00] <@Hyronymus> ! A developers kit :P. But uhm, can't we just vote now we're all here
[18:01:04] <@Hyronymus> ~
[18:01:21] <azzaz> ! Lets vote on if we should vote? ~
[18:01:36] <XeryusTC> ! Purno left his vote for INI (probably because it was his own idea :P, maybe orudge wants to vote too? ~
[18:01:52] <@Hyronymus> orudge, what say you~
[18:02:23] <@Hyronymus> 10 seconds...
[18:02:35] <@Hyronymus> no vote from orudge
[18:02:47] <@Hyronymus> azzaz, what has your preference~
[18:03:03] <azzaz> Lua
[18:03:10] <@Hyronymus> XeryusTC~
[18:03:15] <XeryusTC> script/lua
[18:03:28] <@Hyronymus> I choose lua too
[18:03:47] <@Hyronymus> that leaves 1 INI and 3 lua. 0 XML and 0 TDF
[18:04:04] <azzaz> ! motion passed? ~
[18:04:05] <@Hyronymus> 3 is a 75% majority so we have decided
[18:04:08] <@Hyronymus> !
[18:04:36] <@Hyronymus> ~
[18:04:55] <azzaz> ! next item? ~
[18:05:01] <@Hyronymus> ok
[18:05:07] <@Hyronymus> 4. Any other business
[18:05:12] <@Hyronymus> anyone?!~
[18:05:30] <XeryusTC> ! i'm having dinner too, bbl ~
[18:05:31] <@orudge> ! or ~ or whatever
[18:05:37] <@orudge> What's going on with the web site?
[18:05:40] <@orudge> (apologies if I've missed it)
[18:05:46] <@orudge> Is somebody in charge of it, still, etc? as it's still hosted on my server
[18:05:47] <@orudge> (which is fine)
[18:06:22] <@Hyronymus> Steve and I were in charge, orudge
[18:06:40] <@Hyronymus> too bad the Wiki dided
[18:06:42] <@Hyronymus> *died
[18:06:56] <@orudge> Yes
[18:06:58] <@orudge> A shame, taht
[18:07:02] <@Hyronymus> I'm still not sure how it happened and if we voted to delete it
[18:07:17] <@Hyronymus> I do recall we voted to stop using it, but not so 'violently'
[18:07:23] <@orudge> OK
[18:07:24] <azzaz> ! Lets revive it? (if its possible) ~
[18:07:36] <@Hyronymus> can you revive it, orudge~
[18:07:47] <@orudge> As already explained, I can't get the old stuff back
[18:07:56] <@orudge> Nobody transitioned it from SourceForge's old database system, and it was deleted
[18:08:05] <@orudge> I'm afraid
[18:08:09] <@Hyronymus> :(
[18:08:10] <azzaz> ! we may as well start over, the project has ~
[18:08:48] <@orudge> ! I have to go now, I'm afraid.
[18:08:49] <@orudge> ~
[18:08:56] <@Hyronymus> ok
[18:09:03] <@Hyronymus> that leaves you and me, azzaz
[18:09:04] <@Hyronymus> :P
[18:09:09] <@Hyronymus> big meeting
[18:09:18] <@Hyronymus> well, we were almost done anyhow
[18:09:25] <azzaz> yes thats true
[18:09:31] <azzaz> next meeting?
[18:10:08] <@Hyronymus> hang on
[18:10:20] <@Hyronymus> uhmm, 2 weeks from now
[18:10:22] <@Hyronymus> ?!
[18:10:26] <@Hyronymus> or 1 week?!
[18:10:32] <azzaz> i think one week
[18:10:40] <@Hyronymus> OK
[18:10:48] <azzaz> this meeting was consumed by file type, next one can cover things we missed
[18:10:48] <@Hyronymus> same time OK with you?
[18:11:00] <azzaz> yes, same time is okay with me
[18:11:17] * Hyronymus changes topic to 'Welcome to the Transport Empire channel | Visit the project homepage < http://www.transportempire.com/home.php > |  Meeting 22 Jun 2006, 1400 GMT | Please talk proper English'
[18:11:24] <@Hyronymus> ok, then we are done
[18:11:29] <@Hyronymus> thanks for your input
[18:11:35] <@Hyronymus> XeryusTC and Purno too
[18:11:55] <azzaz> yes, we achieved something today which will enable coding to begin
[18:11:59] <@Hyronymus> I'll create a new topic for the next meeting together with a new agenda
[18:12:50] <azzaz> what about the conclusions we made, should they be posted?
[18:13:44] <@Hyronymus> yes, I'll transform them into objectives for the next meeting
[18:14:17] <Purno> back
[18:15:08] <@Hyronymus> ! -- LOG END --