[22:19:00] we have lift-off [22:19:07] *bong* [22:19:21] welcome to this evenings meeting everyone [22:19:32] let's see who is actualy alife and kicking [22:19:51] Prof_Frink, Hellfire667 and Zuu are, correct [22:19:57] erm, maybe [22:20:03] Zuu is alive [22:20:05] currect. [22:20:08] o* [22:20:15] please specify, Prof_Frink [22:20:18] Vatso here [22:20:25] yup [22:20:29] welcome [22:20:31] Metalcore [22:20:33] I'm probably alive as the dead have trouble typing [22:20:44] Mek_ [22:20:56] jpl [22:21:12] chirho [22:21:21] it remains awfuly silent [22:21:33] but let's start anyhow [22:22:00] does anyone of the attending people have comments on the previous meeting's minutes [22:22:17] Hellfire667 has not. [22:22:24] Not exept that they were late. [22:22:38] Except one: what a damn long meeting! [22:22:48] yes, they were late, I believe due to a mistake [22:22:56] it was a long one [22:22:59] Multiple reasons. [22:23:01] but valuable [22:23:15] ok [22:23:24] Vatso, anything to comment? Or Prof_Frink/ [22:23:34] nope [22:23:57] k, seems noone has [22:24:20] do we have a volunteer for minute man [22:25:06] awful silence [22:25:19] this means I'm gonna assign someone [22:25:30] but who [22:25:41] I can do if its my time. [22:25:43] Vatso, interested in making minutes> [22:25:46] no [22:25:51] turn [22:26:15] will you do it then Zuu [22:26:17] but they will be late [22:26:47] I can do them, if you accept them to come late [22:26:58] how much late [22:27:20] wensday/turseday I think. [22:27:30] accepted [22:27:31] [22:28:03] May I say one thing [22:28:09] sure [22:28:28] I recomendate you to take notes whenever you asign yourself any job. [22:28:41] thats my note. [22:28:45] I have also a request. [22:28:52] ok zuu, point made [22:28:55] Hellfire667? [22:29:13] Ok. Keep the discussions brief and to the point. [22:29:16] When I was making the minutes, [22:29:26] I noticed that a lot of discussion was way off topic. [22:29:35] I apologize for that [22:29:44] I had a hard time keeping it tidy last time [22:29:48] A lot was discussed, but also a lot which was not on the agenda. [22:29:52] I noticed that. [22:29:56] there were too many people :p [22:30:01] Right. [22:30:05] and I was absent-minded [22:30:10] That will be less of a problem this time. [22:30:15] yes [22:30:22] anything else? [22:30:27] But let's just keep it brief and on topic. [22:30:27] No. [22:30:38] you neither Zuu [22:30:43] or Vatso or Prof_Frink [22:30:49] nope [22:30:52] eh? what? [22:30:57] then I'll move on [22:31:06] ok, PJayTycy requested to wait with discussing FRD progress until he arrives [22:31:31] uhm before I forget: chirho, Metalcore, Mek_ and jpl are absent [22:31:47] Hyronymus, Zuu, Hellfire667 and Prof_Frink are present [22:31:52] and Vatso [22:31:55] sorry! [22:32:21] Next topic after FRD seems to be Final discussion / comments on relationship between transport sorts [22:32:24] thanks [22:32:55] Zuu, I believe you can tell us about it [22:33:09] I saw your name alot there [22:33:28] I have created a last minute resume on the article page. [22:33:48] http://tt2.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Relationships_between_transport_sorts [22:34:22] Which says: [22:34:22] * Ideas about how to make busses and lories used for short distance instead of trains. [22:34:22] * Suggested to scale speed of vehicles as a pale that goes 2000 times faster than a ship might be a visulation problem. [22:34:22] o Hellfire suggested to create a prototype. [22:34:24] neat [22:35:03] Im done whit my talk then. [22:35:20] so this are things we have to consider next [22:35:41] Hellfire667, will creating a prototype for the latter be much work [22:35:49] This are a *short* summary on what discussed. [22:36:00] I don't think so. A prototype would be really simple. [22:36:12] Imagine a proto like this: [22:36:26] just move fore sprites in diffrent speeds in SDL for example. [22:36:28] A blank screen, with sprites of different vehicle types moving around. [22:36:38] So basically what zuu said [22:36:44] ok [22:36:59] Possibly some interaction to adjust the values at runtime. [22:37:01] so it would be safe to assume it can be done well before next meeting [22:37:23] It's definitely doable before the next meeting. [22:37:42] ok [22:37:59] I must say the threaded style of the talk page is very handy [22:38:47] and what about research into the lorries for large distance [22:39:07] ? [22:39:09] The problem with lorries is the limited capacity. [22:39:33] In Locomotion, lorries can't make enough profit to compensate their running consts. [22:39:37] costs* [22:39:48] so if we have a tool to easily manage a swarm of lories it might be esier to use em too. [22:39:49] I have an interesting thought about them (perhaps): give all vehicle types an accesibility variable [22:39:55] rv's can almost come everywhere [22:40:02] planes hardly [22:40:23] the amount of revenue generated depends on distance, acces. var. and other stuff [22:40:23] perhaps you can discuss that on the wiki. [22:40:36] I will [22:40:46] after the meeting [22:41:12] I hoped there would be more response but not everyone involved last meeting is here [22:41:54] next topic on the agenda is New featured discussion [22:42:13] I think that a lot of variables, like revenue per km will be things that we would have to calibrate with a working game engine. [22:42:15] I was suprised by the low amount of disscusion, as uzu... and someone mere discussed alot last meeting(OT) [22:42:40] I agree with you Zuu [22:42:54] and what you say is true either Hellfire667 [22:43:18] can that be done in another or perhaps the same prototype [22:43:45] The prototype I was planning is only for speed. [22:43:47] Nothing else. [22:43:49] ok [22:44:20] more on the previous featured discussion? [22:44:34] nope [22:44:59] perhaps you Hellfire667 [22:45:13] No, I have no comments. [22:45:36] ok, shall we decide that for next meeting there will be a prototype to deal with speed [22:45:51] Ok. I vote in favour. [22:45:58] uhmm, to illustrate the speed issue would be better [22:46:02] Zuu vote in favour [22:46:03] I agree too [22:46:09] measure passed [22:46:18] who will do it Hellfire? [22:46:28] that's the next question [22:46:32] I'll do it. [22:46:36] In SDL [22:46:42] ok [22:47:25] Now I personally think that it won't be wrong to make the discussion on how rv's can be profitable on longer distabced the new featured discussion [22:47:32] Suggestions for next Featured Discussion from our wiki: [22:47:32] # Destinations & pathfinding [22:47:32] # Discussion about the production chains for industries in TE [22:47:51] I know, but I disagree [22:48:21] am I being nasty now? [22:48:24] pathfinding is nice for when we're designing the architecture. [22:48:26] dissagree [22:48:30] dissagree with Hyronymus [22:48:40] [22:49:11] I think FD should be used for stuff that is important for the development to move forward. [22:49:20] ok [22:49:24] are destinations & pathfinding a good combination to discuss at once btw [22:49:31] No [22:49:35] shouldn't they be discussed seperatly [22:49:53] Destinations (for cargo? for passengers?) should be separate from pathfinding [22:50:13] Hyronymus thinks so too. You agree on that Zuu [22:50:21] yes [22:50:37] now Hellfire667 said pathfinding is too early to discuss [22:50:48] is destinations too early too> [22:51:14] Not necessarily [22:51:20] I have one thing.. [22:51:21] Depends on what we wnat to discuss. [22:51:27] (on destinations) [22:51:39] I don't believe we want to know if we add them [22:51:51] more like how we should implement them [22:52:05] As architecture design is getting closer, we maybe can have use for discuss something about that. [22:52:29] Simutrans has a very powerful implementation of it, right [22:52:50] yes [22:53:09] can't we ask Hajo to write a summary of his system on the TE wiki to start the topic? [22:53:41] We could do that. After all, Hajo's Simutrans is open source, right? [22:53:49] first we maybe should select which topic to choose. (agree that hajo might be usefull) [22:54:15] sorry, you're right Zuu [22:54:16] SImutrans is free as in free beer [22:54:30] ie gratis [22:54:40] what do we decide: pathfinding [22:54:43] destinations [22:54:51] or production chains [22:55:04] Hyronymus votes for destinations [22:55:06] I vote destinations [22:55:06] or prep for architecture design [22:55:35] or was that a bad idea? [22:55:35] ? [22:55:36] Zuu: destinations fit better in the funcional design. [22:55:46] no, but I didn't see it as an idea :p [22:56:09] I saw it as a reason to pick destinations [22:56:13] I mean how to structurate the code. Maybe a later topic. [22:56:31] I think more people should vote on it [22:56:34] Let's keep that for later, yes. [22:56:38] O [22:56:39] k [22:56:44] f [22:56:44] i [22:56:44] n [22:56:45] e [22:57:04] anyone else for destinations then [22:57:16] I agreee on destinations [22:57:19] meeting? [22:57:22] yes [22:57:24] no [22:57:26] :p [22:57:29] well, I can't participate, anyway. [22:57:33] Math porject due tomorrow [22:57:36] need to start [22:57:37] good luck [22:58:23] so Hyronymus, Hellfire667, Zuu is for destinations [22:58:31] yes [22:58:37] that was what I was typing too [22:58:41] noone aginsr [22:58:46] noone aginst [22:58:52] the minority is silent [22:58:58] Hellfire, /hop [22:59:00] or /cycle [22:59:01] or whatever [22:59:01] measure passed [22:59:02] Hellfire667 [~jeroen@195.240.128.92] has left #tempire [22:59:02] Hellfire667 [~jeroen@195.240.128.92] has joined #tempire [22:59:02] L [TheLBot@lightweight.quakenet.org] has set mode +o Hellfire667 [22:59:05] there [22:59:11] Metalcore projecta [22:59:15] er, projects [22:59:24] silent please? [22:59:40] Metalcore: silent please? [22:59:44] Zuu, can you set it up again on the Wiki and provide the usual link on the forum? [22:59:49] hmm? [22:59:53] silent? [23:00:03] you distrubing the meeting [23:00:05] you're disturbing the meeting [23:00:10] ah, of course. sorry bout that. [23:00:11] Hyronymus: yes,sure. [23:00:17] thanks Zuu [23:00:55] can we move on to the next topic, Prototype progress? [23:01:06] yes [23:01:15] I read your letter to CS [23:01:23] got an answer. [23:01:28] w00t [23:01:30] freindly? [23:01:43] Can you paste it? [23:01:47] These days, AWS is developed only when someone who needs something [23:01:47] that it doesn't offer decides to contribute. Beside the apparent [23:01:47] complexity, the other common complaint about AWS is that it lacks [23:01:47] features. Therefore, if you plan to implement the features you [23:01:47] outlined, I am sure that people would welcome having them included in [23:01:47] AWS itself. Contributions are welcome. [23:01:51] (I'll temporarily de-op XP) [23:01:53] he'll be kicked for flooding [23:02:23] Hellfire667 [~jeroen@195.240.128.92] has set mode -o ^XP^ [23:02:26] so they are actually lazy at CS, Zuu [23:02:33] [23:02:58] but what does this mean: more work to ourselves or impossible to work with cS [23:02:58] So basically, AWS is depricated? [23:03:09] nice wording, Hellfire667 [23:03:24] They ton tevelop it if noone sends a patch I gues. [23:03:37] They dont develop it if noone sends a patch I gues. [23:04:04] that's laisser-faire in some sense [23:04:10] So it's complex and not being developed. [23:04:23] My suggest is that we create a FRD for the windowing system. [23:04:39] So you think it's not worth the effort to continue on CS research [23:05:27] no. I mean It might be usefull to chose either to continue with CS or something wlse, but no everything. [23:06:13] How much work would it be to develop an engine in SDL, as opposed to developing a game in CS? [23:06:31] I think we can use CS, but it has to be extended, as all aother windowing system out there to meet our requriments [23:06:42] good point, the benefits of SDL should be extremely large to really cancel CS [23:07:01] I dont know, as I have mostly looked into the AWS part. [23:07:02] and are we capable enough to extend it, Zuu [23:07:15] Hyronymus: I think so. [23:07:27] I hoped you would say of course [23:07:29] [23:07:43] I know I definitely am. And eXinion is also. [23:08:06] is it really needed to give SDL a chance then? [23:08:14] note: noob question [23:08:24] Hellfire667: I havent developed any 3D apps, so I cant answer if CS is good for our 3D needs. [23:08:37] Let me try to elaborate on the difference between SDL and Cs in one sentence: [23:09:18] SDL is *just* an interface between platform (linux/win32) and application. CS is a complete game engine, which features amongs many others, the AWS windowing system. [23:09:31] ok [23:09:32] Metalcore [~evanseeds@12-218-185-213.client.mchsi.com] has quit IRC: Signed off [23:09:45] CS is more complete [23:09:48] Metalcore [~evanseeds@12-218-180-224.client.mchsi.com] has joined #tempire [23:09:48] L [TheLBot@lightweight.quakenet.org] has set mode +o Metalcore [23:09:57] and thus more promising [23:10:09] Yes, but also more demanding on resources. [23:10:27] and uncertain for when it comes to extensions [23:10:39] And as most games are action games its probably optimized for such games. [23:11:29] does it mean that there should be at least one extension programmed to know how valuable CS really is [23:12:28] At least someone with 3Dknownledge has to look into it, and see how good it preforms for 3D tasks. [23:12:39] No. [23:12:54] Zuu: agree. [23:12:59] ok [23:13:21] we can ask you again Hellfire667 but you said eXinion might be capable too [23:13:41] is it a solution to ask if eXinion can look into it [23:13:52] I'm not sure whether I can get both done before the next meeting. Perhaps asking eX is a good idea. [23:13:59] (both = CS + speed) [23:14:16] that's what I anticipated [23:14:47] Can you tell eXinion what to do, Hellfire667 [23:15:01] I'll ask him. [23:15:03] in a PM/email/real life [23:15:34] ask him to post in this meetings topic if he got the message from you [23:15:44] Ok. [23:15:53] if he didn't post in 1 week we'll remind him off it [23:15:57] Ok [23:16:45] Anything else? [23:16:47] then there was one more prototype [23:16:57] but that was from PJay^%&*^ [23:17:09] he might drop in anytime know [23:17:10] PJayTycy [23:17:19] thankx Zuu [23:17:50] I suggest we move on an save his track-lying proto for the AOB [23:17:57] *and [23:18:21] I'm here. [23:18:28] only just [23:18:30] [23:18:39] shall I move on to Website/Wiki related issues [23:18:47] guess so. [23:19:06] I haven't heard from chirho about the backup protocol [23:19:21] Hmm. Yes. I've put this on the wiki as continuation of the discussion last week. I don't know if anything new will come up or not. [23:19:21] pjaytycy [~pjaytycy@D5E000C2.kabel.telenet.be] has joined #tempire [23:19:21] He have created on wiki page. [23:19:31] hello all [23:19:35] hi pjaytycy [23:20:09] you have a link to it Zuu [23:20:29] we are on"Website/wiki related iusses" PJ. [23:20:37] TRy: http://tt2.sf.net/wiki/index.php/Backup [23:20:54] it's empty [23:20:57] [23:21:02] I'll suggest http://tt2.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Backups [23:21:20] one character difference [23:21:36] oh, I did read that one [23:21:50] but he hasn't made a way to make it work, right [23:21:58] jpl, do you know more about it [23:22:56] that's a no [23:23:08] I'll post a remark on the forums about it [23:23:14] I'm really really sorry, guys, but I have to bring my GF home, *again*... I'll come back online when I come home. [23:23:21] ok [23:23:25] safety first [23:23:37] hellfire, you shouldn't even be here when your girlfriend is at your house [23:23:41] bye. I hope 'till later tonight. [23:23:45] Hellfire667 [~jeroen@195.240.128.92] has quit IRC: Read error: EOF from client [23:23:49] hehe [23:24:27] Zuu, pjaytycy, jpl, Vatso: anything else about Website/Wiki related issues [23:24:47] Hyronymus forgot Prof_Frink this time [23:24:50] have you talked about more structure in the wiki ? [23:24:57] no [23:24:58] no [23:25:03] what about it pjaytycy [23:25:03] Hyronymus: assume I'm not here [23:25:12] begone, Prof_Frink [23:25:22] Euhm, I read it on someones user page this week (or last week) [23:25:32] I was until you hilighted me [23:25:35] should that be nooted in the minutes Prof_Frink? [23:25:41] don't remember which one though [23:25:52] you remember what it came down to, pjaytycy [23:26:10] I remember. (think so) [23:26:11] The fact is, we have the wiki as a collection of single pages, and hardly any structure to easily navigate it [23:26:21] Zuu agrees [23:26:28] the FRD is the only thing with some structure to it. [23:26:41] true [23:26:43] The featured discussion could be easily grouped in a similar way for example [23:26:55] can't we agree to add links to new pages on the front page [23:27:02] under a section What's new [23:27:19] I currently use the "recently changed" page to navigate the wiki [23:27:27] which is a PITA [23:27:32] Create a template for that so non-criss people can edit it [23:27:54] Create a template for that so non-chris people can edit it [23:28:08] a template for what exactly [23:28:15] "what's new" would help, but it's still not the same as a real structure [23:28:25] "whats new" [23:28:27] no, it's not [23:28:56] I suggest that we create a tree for non discussional pages. [23:28:58] the problem lies in cross-referencing too [23:29:23] But, it's just a remark from a user's point of view. I'm too illiterate at wiki's to know about the possibilities [23:29:37] a tree would be handy but how do you create it at a wiki [23:29:49] pjaytycy: what is wrong with the current structure of FD in the discussions page? [23:30:14] Hyronymus: a page with diffrent headers. [23:30:20] Oh, there is a "discussions" page ? [23:30:25] Hyronymus: a page with diffrent headings. [23:30:26] lol [23:30:48] Iactually added a link to in on the comunity portal. [23:31:06] you mean like the FRD Gameplay page which has a table of content, Zuu [23:31:23] Hyronymus: yes [23:31:55] Zuu, the "Discussion" page is good, but it seems hard to find [23:32:05] You can use categories too. [23:32:18] categories are smart too [23:32:34] but to impose them on the Wiki might be some work [23:32:56] Categories would be really good. [23:33:07] pjaytycy: I created this page http://tt2.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/New_main_page to elaborate on new content for the front page. [23:33:28] how much work would it be to change the wiki as it is to a more categorized one [23:33:46] not so much, we only have 25-30 pages [23:34:18] Just make sure that the people that does the job is familar with wikimedia. [23:34:20] and we already have 2 obvious categories : FRD + discussions [23:34:31] yes [23:34:51] and maybe development too. [23:35:09] I wish I had more knowledge of the Wikimedia system to change it [23:35:10] http://tt2.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Special:Allpages [23:35:21] That seemed a usefull link [23:35:30] Tip: install wikimedia on your local computer. [23:36:06] ok, Zuu. I'll give it a fo [23:36:08] *go [23:36:37] (you need webserver + SQL database) [23:36:42] enoght OT. [23:36:48] I'll commit myself to changing it then but only if I can call on support if needed [23:37:27] anyhting else to discuss on Website/Wiki related issues [23:37:31] I suggest someone else [23:37:36] ok [23:37:43] I suggest everyone but me [23:37:46] I don't mind, who you have in mind [23:37:55] yourself, Zuu? [23:38:02] I know some at least. [23:38:20] So I can do it I think. + have it localy. [23:38:27] I can do it. [23:38:41] OK. If you are done with the changes please post about it on the forum [23:38:54] in which thread meeting? [23:38:58] and add a request to stick to the new order too [23:39:04] just create a new one [23:39:08] ok [23:39:15] with a catchy title [23:39:22]