[13:22:02] *** START LOG *** [13:22:04] * eXinion just moved a refrigerator into his room :p [13:22:29] First of all, to the minutes of the last meeting. Everyone happy with them? [13:22:41] * eXinion is! :p [13:23:06] Yes, those were pretty pitiful, weren't they? [13:23:22] actually, the minutes of the last meeting was just a log, but since the meeting was a "fluke" according to Hyr, I think they're ok ;) [13:23:39] I ask this as a matter of routine - any matters arising from them? :P [13:23:51] oops, wrong meeting, I was thinking of the minutes I made :p [13:24:13] I have nothing. [13:24:23] me neither [13:24:34] 2. Categorising the ideas [13:24:52] hmm... meeting? [13:24:53] Ideas 136-187 aren't done yet, 132, 130, 129, 124-126 aren't done either, the rest is done [13:25:06] so we're a good way through them [13:25:21] yes, looks like it [13:25:32] Who's doing the last bunch? [13:25:36] In the minutes: Hellfire will do ideas 124 - 194 <--- My fault. I was too busy studying my exams. Sorry. I'll do them this weekend. [13:25:47] ok [13:25:59] alright [13:26:14] How far down the Ideas tpoic does that list go? [13:26:30] hmm, don't really know about that... [13:26:38] All the way. [13:26:51] So, you've been updating it as new posts appear there? [13:27:03] I think we have about 90 - 95% coverage of all idea's in the topic. [13:27:19] There haven't been new posts afaik. [13:27:42] ah [13:28:04] Last one was of July 19th. That was after we started spitting through that topic. [13:28:16] ok [13:28:30] Anything else? [13:28:30] (woops... That was Quasi-English Dutch... spitting... :) ) [13:28:50] july 19th ??? last year, or next week ? :p [13:28:53] No, once it's done, it's done. Then we can make design documents out of the ideas in the database. [13:29:01] Sorry. June. [13:29:19] :D [13:29:35] ok then [13:29:42] 3. Core features revisited [13:30:06] This is what we have: http://www.tt-forums.net//files/te_core_properties_147.txt [13:30:32] yes, I have nothing to add to that [13:30:50] Is track/signal laying a core feature? [13:31:16] Depends. What are your ideas on that? [13:31:36] I think we should at least have subways and signals on bridges and tunnels [13:32:35] hmm, the question is how they they are represented [13:32:42] I wouldn't say that was a core feature, more one for a supposed railway module [13:32:43] Hmm. No, I think that's a good one for the ideas topic. Having signals on bridges and tunnels is a detail that should not be in the core features. [13:33:02] ok [13:33:24] if the track on a bridge is inherited [13:33:34] from track... [13:33:44] As a side thought, perhaps having bridges and tunnels represented independently of track, i.e. you have track which runs on a bridge, as opposed to a bridge which joins two bits of track (as in TT) [13:33:55] that's an idea, making a bridge, where you can then lay track over... [13:34:05] chirho: TTD is a bit more complicate [13:34:06] IMO (but I think this is offtopic), a bridge should just be a extra piece of map. [13:34:19] eXinion: that's exactly what I was thinking of :) [13:34:20] chirho: tunnels work as you describe, not bridges... [13:34:41] it would be more in the direction of 'object oriented' stuff :p [13:34:58] but let's go ontopic again [13:35:16] Nothing to add to the core list? [13:35:28] nope [13:35:40] 4. Design documents [13:35:40] no [13:36:21] eXinion, will yopu do the honours? [13:37:18] hmm... what should I say? (not really getting the idea here) [13:37:51] Ok... The design documents: as stated in the earlier meetings, we should get started on writing some design documents. [13:38:10] ah like that... [13:38:12] The following documents should be written (or at least be partially written) before we start coding. [13:38:45] A functional requirements document, which is made from the document Adam K. a.k.a Uzurpator has written and the database of categorized ideas [13:39:14] A specification document, which describes datastructures and object models to implement the stuff mentioned in the functional requirements document [13:39:39] And perhaps an architecture document, which in detail describes the classes in the code. [13:39:43] ah yes, now I get it... [13:40:00] I think the architecture doc. is something to worry about later, when we've got the rest of the docs working [13:40:11] essentially docs with LODs :) [13:40:25] LOD=Loads of Detail? [13:40:59] Yes, essentially docs with LODs. :P. The functional doc describes WHAT we're going to make. The specs doc describes HOW we're going to do it, and the architecture doc describes the DETAILS of the implementation. [13:41:16] eXinion: Levels ... [13:41:39] ah ok :) that explains a lot [13:42:55] so uh, where do we start? [13:43:00] and who does what? [13:43:05] With the functional requirements document. [13:43:24] Once the ideas are all done, categorise all the ideas - we could use something like a wiki for that [13:43:50] A wiki would be a good way to do it. A text file on the cvs can also do it. [13:44:29] wiki??? (I'm seeing a lot of words I'm not familiar with today) [13:44:52] http://c2.com/ [13:45:47] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki [13:46:22] ah okay thanks :) [13:46:30] To be honest, I prefer a text file on the cvs. Perhaps we can use a format like texinfo, so we can generate HTML and PDF files from the texinfo whenever we need them. [13:46:55] hmm, are you sure? [13:47:41] That's another good idea [13:47:43] if you have so many docs, one text file wouldn't work, or you simple lost in your texts [13:48:04] It would mean lots of us would have to go and learn texinfo ... [13:48:19] (I already know a little tex, so it's not all that big a deal for me) [13:48:40] * eXinion too [13:49:13] In fact, I regularly use latex to generate my coursework :) [13:49:14] I think that will not be a real problem, once the documents are created. It's relatively easy to add stuff to a document, because the markup is already given. You just have to copy it ;) [13:49:31] chirho: I use LaTeX for almost all of my coursework :) [13:49:42] * eXinion uses MS word :p [13:50:06] OK, opinion time again [13:50:53] * eXinion is okay with tex [13:50:55] My thoughts are to use a wiki for working copies, and generate an authoritative document using something like texinfo to keep in cvs [13:51:12] "or something" [13:51:40] I've no problem with that [13:51:53] Of course, it's only a metter of time before someone says the D-word [13:52:10] d*cb**k [13:52:12] Neither do I. It's combining the best of two worlds. What is the D-word? [13:52:22] D-word?? [13:52:31] still don't get it :p [13:52:36] Docbook. [13:52:54] ah [13:52:58] What is docbook, anyway? [13:53:12] ocBook is general purpose XML and SGML document type particularly well suited to books and papers about computer hardware and software (though it is by no means limited to these applications). [13:53:32] docbook is to XML as texinfo is to tex [13:53:52] ah [13:54:03] bye [13:54:04] * eis_os has left #tempire [13:54:51] I'll look into some wikis [13:55:05] I had previously been a fan of tikiwiki, but mediawiki has since caught my attention [13:55:11] tikiwiki ;) http://tikiwiki.ttdpatch.com [13:55:12] (ah, the joy of page sections ...) [13:55:30] you mean wiki.tdpatch.net, right? [13:55:38] add t where apprpopriate [13:55:40] yes. I don't know the exact url. [13:55:57] hmm .. got some weird search page :p [13:55:59] mediawiki has the advantage that it supports page sections [13:56:21] i.e. you can have DesignDocument#CoreFeatures [13:57:25] Well. It's ok to me. So chirho, you will pick a wiki and install it to our sourceforge.net webspace? [13:57:52] we'll see - I'll have to double-check the features we have available, but there shouldn't be too much of a problem. [13:58:49] Any more offers on design docs? [13:58:59] In the mean time, I'll try to make a draft version of a functional requirements document for the next meeting. I'll do it in the texinfo format for now. If we decide to use another format, I'll adapt it. [13:59:18] so, we don't start the actual documenting yet? [13:59:38] * Metalcore424 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [13:59:38] * Bot424 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [13:59:40] Gather your tools, *then* start work :) [13:59:41] maybe we should put a post on the forum asking who wants to help document things... as there are only 3 or 4 people here right now [14:00:11] And ask them to be present at the next meeting. (Evan would use this smiley for that: >_< ) [14:00:21] lol :D [14:00:31] ( actually he'd probably use <_< or >_>, but never mind) [14:00:32] *squeezing eyes to match* [14:00:37] Evan?? [14:00:41] hmm. up to 16 players sounds good enough. [14:00:49] regarding to core features [14:00:53] Conditional_Zen: Evan = Metalcore424 = Lilman424 [14:01:02] ah [14:01:20] Jpl: The idea was to set the actual limits far beyond the practical limits [14:01:47] So, if for most people it woulsn't seem sensible to have more than 12-16 players in the game, we support more "just in case" [14:01:57] could we make it a mmorpg?? :p [14:02:04] no limit then :) [14:02:07] oh no, we'd need dedicated servers [14:02:32] And way larger maps :) [14:02:32] "how many players?" "hardware is the limit" [14:02:50] that isn't such a bit idea actually, then playing only an hour a week isn't that bad either [14:02:54] the world just moves on... :p [14:02:56] Jpl: but then we'd have people turning up and posting stuff like "Hey! I just got a server with 100 players running! Slow as crap though ..." [14:02:59] so, 2^64 players on 64-bit systems... [14:03:37] I suppose that with the mmorpg style, you can have the trains running in real-time [14:03:41] nah. up to 32 players [14:03:49] and have fun with micro-management [14:04:04] but that's something to think about so far down the line that it's not even on the horizon :) [14:04:10] and maps as 1:1 in real world?-) [14:04:15] @chirho: yep, true, but that's dreaming about the future :p [14:04:46] Let's see how many people notice this in the logs :) [14:04:54] Actually, supporting a mmorpg style game might require structural changes. So let's put it in the ideas database and consider it an "optional" feature. [14:05:11] who'll put it in there? [14:05:54] It's 1300 UTC now... I have to go! I'll read the logs when they are posted to the forum and give my opinion if I think something is not right. [14:06:01] some of us. [14:06:12] So, next item then? [14:06:17] bye [14:06:19] * Hellfire[Coder] has left #tempire [14:06:27] 5. File formats [14:06:36] 3ds [14:06:36] Who's logging again? [14:06:46] aren't you? [14:06:53] my irc client makes a very bad log :p [14:06:53] I thought hellfilre was ... [14:07:01] my client is logging.. [14:07:19] you said "* START LOGGING * at the start, chirho :p [14:07:24] So, file formats. Who was going to discuss this? [14:07:31] alright, then jpl makes a log :p [14:07:36] oliver_? [14:07:39] but he's not here [14:07:40] uh. not logging anymore [14:08:06] uhoh [14:08:11] I guess nobody knows which aspects he was looking at formats for then? [14:08:22] not me... [14:08:25] formats we'd support, formats we'd use in-game, etc. [14:08:27] never heard anything about that [14:08:39] let's save this for next meeting [14:08:45] ok [14:08:46] or ask him at the forum [14:08:53] he did say he'd PM me with something [14:09:09] * Tombe[Music] has joined #tempire [14:09:30] Hello? [14:09:31] nothing about file formats? [14:09:39] hi? [14:09:45] hi! [14:09:46] Ah, there are people here [14:09:52] I made it eventually [14:09:54] we're meeting :) [14:10:20] What are we talking about at the moment? [14:10:29] Well, we don't know whether we're looking at formats that we will support for inputting data, formats used for savegames and config data, or anything else [14:10:37] file formats... know anything about who would research that? [14:10:48] Failing that ... [14:11:03] 6. Programmer recruitment [14:11:07] I think we need formats for every one of those chirho [14:11:25] eXinion: I know, but we need to know what the discussion was going to be about [14:11:36] yes, that's true [14:11:45] So, who's new? :) [14:12:23] While we're on it, ahve we made a decision on what we're using for music yet? mp3? Ogg Vorbis? [14:12:23] no-one on sourceforge... [14:13:18] Do we want to try a new campaign on the forums? Do we want to try sourceforge's Help Wanted mechanisms? [14:13:55] We could try both.. but I think we need people that are familiar with TTD or TT [14:13:59] We could try a new campaign on the forums [14:14:15] Maybe topics in OT and the TT related boards? [14:14:31] Yeah, I notice that a good number of people don't read the OT board. [14:14:47] OT = openTTD? [14:14:54] Off-Topic [14:15:03] ah okay [14:15:08] Lots of people just ignore it [14:15:09] * eXinion doesn't read the OT board.. :p [14:15:24] It might be worth a try [14:15:37] Lots of people read the TTD board, and I could "bump" the sticky in OT [14:15:44] But I won't make the threads because everyone in OT seems to hate me [14:15:56] (as if a sticky even drops ...) [14:15:58] [14:16:11] Tombe[Music]: So, you leaving again? :P [14:16:25] How many times is that now? [14:16:48] No, I haven't left for a while now [14:17:11] Lost count :D [14:17:12] Awww, I was hoping I could say "QUIT THE..." again [14:17:21] 3 I think [14:17:45] So, I'll add to the sticky in OT. [14:17:46] In the last year [14:17:51] Where else? [14:17:58] in the TEmpire forums? [14:18:01] Yes [14:18:13] General Transport Tycoon, maybe [14:18:22] And TTO and TTD [14:18:24] I notice we seem to havea limited readership in TE these days, but we've got a free rein in there [14:18:40] We tried GTT last time - post volume is stupidly low in there. [14:18:47] As is the readership. [14:19:05] lol [14:19:18] TTD is probably the best bet since we've already got one in OT [14:19:24] Ironic how the word 'rein' comes up when we're talking about programmers [14:19:34] Maybe General TT too, Chris [14:20:11] It might be worth a try [14:20:26] Wev'e already had a thread there - it had something like 3 views in a week before Spiff moved it and stickied it in OT [14:20:34] :D [14:21:05] and of those three, one each of those went to Hyronymus when he posted it, and me when I checked it [14:21:11] OK, I never read it anyway so I wouldn't know [14:21:13] Undoubtedly, view #3 was Spiff moving it [14:21:37] lol :D [14:22:31] me thinks I looked [14:22:43] Are there any other reasonably big TT forums around apart from TT-Forums.net [14:22:44] ? [14:24:34] alt.games.microprose.transport-tyc [14:24:39] If so, we could try a couple of posts there [14:26:59] yeah, that's a good idea [14:29:10] I gtg now, enjoy the rest of the meeting [14:29:10] Bye [14:29:12] * Tombe[Music] has quit IRC (Read error: EOF from client) [14:30:01] sorry - phone went [14:30:02] * eXinion thinks we should wrap it up :p [14:30:05] everyones getting bored :p [14:30:10] np [14:30:24] So, a thread in TTD, and a bump in OT it is then [14:30:33] And finally, AOB? [14:30:42] (Any Other Business) [14:30:50] How do I get added at sourceforge? [14:30:51] ah yes, I have nothing... [14:31:29] You make sure you have a sourceforge account, and then ask me very nicely :) [14:31:53] I have an account cond_zenith [14:31:57] though for now having access to sourceforge doesn't really let you do much, since there's nthing in the CVS, and nothing to go in there [14:32:09] I am now asking very nicely [14:34:33] Anyone else want to ask very nicely for me to add them? [14:36:33] OK, targets which have been set: [14:37:06] * Hellfire to draft a basic functional requirements doc - can't remember the timescale, so 2 weeks unless he said sooner [14:37:23] * Chris to set up a wiki on the project SF web space - 1 week [14:37:50] * Chris to continue the marketing campaign - immediate [14:37:56] Hellfire said he'd write it for the next meeting [14:38:12] ok then [14:38:22] * Hellfire to draft a basic functional requirements doc - "next meeting" [14:38:44] Anything else? [14:38:50] nope, that's it [14:38:56] * Chris to get some sleep - tonight :)