Is anyone not aware of the situation so far? depends on which situation you're referring to... as regards the last 6 months I haven't been on the forums lately, but I think you're referring to the deadline... which expired 21 minutes ago about a month or so ago, Owen handed over the SF project to me, on account of "not having enough time to deal with it" two weeks ago, I tried getting hold of rein, along with setting a deadline for 1 week later [22:22] the forums went down, so I couldn't get the reminder off to someone else that was also trying to contact him [22:22] deadline went back by a week to tonight [22:23] initial response wasn't promising, apparently people had offered to to stuff and then he got "no response" from those people [22:23] * GoneWacko has joined #tempire [22:23] * chirho sets mode: +v GoneWacko [22:23] * GoneWacko has left #tempire [22:24] (nice ...) [22:24] those people=rein? [22:24] those people = people that had told rein they were helping [22:24] or were others actively program too? [22:24] ahh [22:24] no... people = me, sjammaron, dak lozar and others [22:24] there we go :) [22:25] So, now we come to this week [22:26] I got a response saying that rein has worked on TE since [22:26] with a slight rethink on the design front (i.e. there was a design this time) [22:26] (lol) [22:27] some basic docs written up "so I know where I'm going", as well as some stuff implemented: [22:27] - new track system (not only 8 directional, but makes many curves [22:27] variations possible) [22:27] - track lying [22:27] - train management/movement [22:27] - pathfinding and ordering [22:27] - signalling and block management [22:28] sounds good [22:28] Now, of course, that's all well and good, but completely worthless because of one small fact. [22:28] no code? [22:28] Exactly. [22:29] hmm, but all those things are in chocomah's program and he did release his code [22:29] None of this work is worth anything, if we don't have it [22:29] you're right about that. [22:30] but it is no option using zugspiels engine as base? [22:30] It's an OPEN source project ;) [22:30] and Zugspiel actually does look promising [22:30] Now, if oyu like, I can give everyone rein's address so you can file your complaints to the appropriate place (i.e. his inbox) [22:30] (hehe) [22:30] no [22:30] I don't think he will work harder then [22:30] looking through all that spam ;) [22:30] Our goal isn't to get him working harder [22:30] I think it will decrease our chances of ever getting some code. [22:31] I agree with that [22:31] He can work 24 hours a day for all I care, but it's worth jack shit to us if we don't get the results back in a timely fashion [22:31] so what's keeping hinm from putting the code in cvs? [22:32] * racz has joined #tempire [22:32] The fact that he hasn't given me the name of a sourceforge account to give him access to it [22:32] (anonymous CVS with sf doesn't allow you to prod stuff into the repo) [22:33] (it does allow random patch writers to get the code, gen up a patch, and send it to someone that does) [22:33] and that's a good thing... But perhaps rein doesn't know how to use CVS and is not very willing to learn. [22:33] if he's the only one working on it he prolly doesn't have a sourceforge acount [22:33] why should he [22:34] Arathorn: That much I figured from the "I didn't know about my sourceforge account" in his email [22:34] heh [22:34] and he should, because the project is registered there, and it is (read: should be) the official base for developers, etc. [22:34] with the tt-forums then being our general hang-out [22:34] could you post relevant bits of that email here? [22:34] or emails? [22:35] but he didnt post anything on the forum either, so thats no real excuse either [22:35] the new TE code WILL NOT be published anymore until it reaches [22:35] suitable state (beta probably). interested developers wishing to [22:35] help may contact me anytime, but no public version yet [22:35] as we see, it didn't make any sense [22:36] My response was typically "Meet The Parents"-esque [22:36] hmm so it isnt realy an option using reins code? [22:36] That's what we need to discuss now. [22:36] We can use what's in CVS already, or we can throw it out [22:36] As I've explained to rein already ... [22:36] did rein give you any timeframe in which he will release the code? [22:36] is his cvs stuff usefull? [22:36] yes and no... [22:37] what's in the cvs, isn't much more than a frame work and a VERY basic terrain renderer [22:37] If people start working on code, and then he turns up saying "here's all the stuff" a month down the line, it's rather unfair on the new devs to throw out their work because rein decided to get back after all [22:37] maybe those new devs can work on other things? [22:38] do we know what rein is (supposed to be) working on? [22:38] Arathorn: Been there, done that ... [22:38] We can't just put the engine on permanent hold just in case he comes back [22:38] true [22:38] so I've ruled out waiting for him to turn up code late, since it wouldn't be fair on everyone else [22:38] hmm so there is no choice, the project should change engine, or start all over again [22:39] I'd rather discriminate against rein than discriminate against everyone-except-rein [22:39] that's true [22:39] (lesser of two evils, and all that ...) [22:39] yep [22:39] yeah [22:40] [quote] with a slight rethink on the design front[/quote] --> The engine in the CVS is obviously not entirily the right way to go. If we abandon rein (unfortunately), I think we should also abandon his current code. [22:40] * Epistax has joined #tempire [22:40] Something to remember is that if we do choose to go in a new direction, we don't have to remove the original code from CVS [22:41] (since it's stuck in a separate module called "old") [22:41] off course [22:41] you called it "old", didn't you? [22:41] even then, SF don't have quotas for CVS [22:42] yeah, since I was anticipating that someone might put something else in there, and not to have the original stuff interfere with it, or get messed up [22:42] good thinking. [22:43] So, it seems that the popular opinion is in favour of a fresh start then? [22:43] yes [22:43] Yes [22:44] Broodje? [22:44] does that mean freash as no use of other engines? [22:44] fresh* [22:44] no, it just means "not using the old engine" [22:44] ahh agreed then :) [22:45] is the zugspiel engine any use? [22:45] I've not looked at it in detail, and ideally chochmah would be the best person to ask on that [22:45] It has some features we also would like to have... [22:45] he would like all help he can get [22:46] OT: dammit, studio sport starts now, does anyone know if I can watch it online? Broodje? [22:46] he asked several times for it on the #tycoon channel [22:46] Good old NOS scheduling ... [22:46] (At least I think it was NOS ...) [22:47] yep :) [22:47] yes [22:47] * racz has left #tempire [22:47] OT: I read that the TV network system in .nl is complex, but back on-topic ... [22:47] Where do we go from here? [22:47] scratch? [22:47] or Zugspiel? [22:48] of course, setting more deadlines for action in the future isn't a problem, as long as we're not waiting forever for one thing [22:48] or will we try to adapt openTTD? [22:48] Hellfire667 no [22:48] openttd is C, rather than C++ [22:48] and is literally a straight port of the original assembler [22:48] I think using a 3d engine is the proper way [22:48] Proposition: [22:50] By next week, someone contacts chochmah and puts forward the idea of using the Zugspiel engine [22:50] he could be in nepal next week :o [22:50] not sure when he had his holiday :o [22:51] ok then [22:51] but you can already look into his work at: http://www.ph2.net/zugspiel/ [22:51] By next week, someone tries to contact chochmah and put forward the idea of using the Zugspiel engine [22:51] :) [22:51] quote": I havent done much last month (apart from debugging and optimizing) and I probably won't be able to do much this month since I'm going to be three weeks in the Mt. Everest region. If I get around to it I'll try to release another windows build before I'm off to Nepal. [22:51] eg he isnt here atm : [22:53] so that would slow down anything for at least 3 weeks [22:54] not realy bad, but we don't have a clue what chocomah changed since 1feb [22:54] so anything you change on the code can be in vain [22:55] not if working in a CVS... Which is what chochmah should do too, IF he agrees. [22:55] another thing: do we still want te to be multi-platform? [22:55] Yes... [22:55] is zugspiel multi-platform? [22:55] Yes [22:55] good [22:55] Zugspiel is SDL based. [22:58] So, to recap the resolutions so far ... [22:58] 1. Drop the current engine code. [22:59] 2. Reject a future "improved" version of said engine from rein? [22:59] If that's a question, then: "Yes." [22:59] yes, becouse what rein is doing now is not working together [23:00] * chirho twats the forum one for not working properly [23:01] So, does anyone fancy drafting some *real* design docs? [23:01] (by which I mean UML, rather than textual descriptions) [23:02] I can't do that :P [23:02] I just installed MS Visio 2003 to do those chores ;) [23:02] Good. I've only got Visio 2002 :) [23:02] But... Would you like me to plot out the model of chochma's code? Or make something entirely new? [23:02] that's a difficult question [23:03] zugspiel looks good and promising [23:03] If you can make sense of what's in there so far, and come up with something which reflects that code, then great [23:03] but we'll also need to look at things which aren't yet implemented [23:04] yep idd, the trouble is, we don't know what chocomah wants in the game [23:04] exactly [23:04] it's his project [23:04] That's not a problem yet. [23:04] he started it to test his pathfinding engine [23:04] i'm not sure if he likes it to be carried away by us [23:04] Before we even approach him, we need to make sure we know what we want as well [23:04] so I think he is openminded about how it should look [23:05] chirho yes indeed [23:05] So.. Concluding: someone will have to try to contact chochmah... [23:05] Chochmah started out as a volunteer for Transport Empire! [23:05] yep, and I think there should be some sort of short wishlist too [23:05] so you know what the code must be able to do [23:06] "requirements" ;) [23:06] Remember that negotiation usually happens between two sindes that both want something. It'd be silly if we didn't have an idea of what we want before going in. Just as he's already got his ideas of what he wants it to be. [23:06] (Much of it might well overlap) [23:06] true [23:06] I'll d/l his sourcecode, and look for any form of documentation. [23:06] ok [23:06] last thing I heard of him was that he didnt want to do GUI work [23:07] then we can assign that to people that do [23:07] so there is none, or almost no GUI code yet [23:08] maybe the project should be devided, so people can work on what they like, the way TEMPIRE was done was to gaotic [23:08] sandwich ;) --> http://www.ph2.net/zugspiel/DSC.JPG [23:08] doh [23:09] about that much is done on the gui, I think [23:09] lol made with a camerra :) [23:09] :D [23:09] hmm stealing ttd sprites :o [23:09] broodje: Once we've established what needs doing, then we can better divide p [23:09] chirho okey right again [23:10] Hellfire667: "sandwich"? [23:10] broodje=sandwich [23:10] Broodje = dutch for sandwich ;) [23:10] muha I was first :) [23:10] lol, ok :) [23:11] * chirho eats broodje [23:11] hehe [23:11] I'm hungry to [23:11] i'll be back in a minute [23:11] So that's what Dinges was eating all that time ;) [23:11] Does it bother anyone that that screenshot was literally a photo of a screen? [23:12] Nope [23:12] A screenshot in the most literal sense :) [23:12] I'm trying to get over it. [23:12] no... [23:12] And then after that, the photo was ported back to computer. [23:12] Epistax he had troubles with unix [23:12] it didnt want to take screenshots for some reason [23:12] * chirho sets mode: +v Epistax [23:12] (I consider that contributing to hte discussion :)