[15:12:09] <+SteveB> ==================== MEETING STARTED ========================= [15:12:10] (we cnat have special meetings every meeting) [15:12:18] <+SteveB> Remember to follow the rules. [15:12:38] meetingrules : The meeting rules can be found at: http://tt2.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Meeting_Rules Please follow them during meetings. [15:12:38] meetingrules : The meeting rules can be found at: http://tt2.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Meeting_Rules Please follow them during meetings. [15:12:43] <+SteveB> Right.. oops. [15:13:15] <+SteveB> Ok. That nearly worked. [15:13:21] <+SteveB> Who wants to me a minutes man? ~ [15:14:26] <+SteveB> Who shall i pick to me a minutes man? [15:14:38] <+SteveB> Metalcore, you haven't done much recently! ~ [15:15:00] I'm worthless [15:15:12] i suppose I COULD do the minutes. [15:15:19] <+SteveB> Good, then it's settled. [15:15:56] ! please post the agenda or tell which to follow~ [15:16:13] <+SteveB> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=264159#264159 [15:16:30] <+SteveB> 3. Discuss the minutes of the previous meeting [15:16:34] <+SteveB> Anything to discuss? [15:16:42] -> [15:17:21] <+SteveB> http://www.tt-forums.net//files/tempiremins050319_444.txt [15:17:23] <+SteveB> ~ [15:17:27] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [15:17:45] Well, related, I think that te person who post the minutes (if noone else hvae done it yet) should post the minutes [15:18:05] or at least point out where to find them. [15:18:14] We might find them, [15:18:36] but those who don't know where to find em wont find em.~ [15:18:58] <+SteveB> Sorry, i'm not sure what you mean. Post the minutes? ~ [15:19:12] Answer: [15:19:23] Post the minutes on the forums. [15:19:42] Upload them to the forum~ [15:20:05] <+SteveB> Yea.. isn't that done anyway? ~ [15:20:32] We can take this on AOB, as soem people might not be here so long, ok? [15:20:41] <+SteveB> Ok. ~ [15:20:52] <+SteveB> Any other problems with the minutes? [15:21:03] <+SteveB> Despite them having the wrong date down for today? ~ [15:21:33] <+SteveB> Ok, moving on. [15:21:34] <+SteveB> 4. Featured discussion. [15:21:37] <+SteveB> What was that then? ~ [15:21:48] -> [15:21:55] <+SteveB> Zuu [15:22:11] Do any one want a featured discussion, for the comeing week(s)? [15:22:35] If not, we'll move on to next. ~ [15:22:56] <+SteveB> 5. Design Document [15:22:57] <+SteveB> 5a Confirm vote [15:23:12] <+SteveB> Only seven people voted [15:23:17] * orudge (orudge@orudge.users.quakenet.org) Quit (Quit: Bye all) [15:23:30] <+SteveB> With me and PjayTycy both baving 2 votes [15:23:36] <+SteveB> The other three candidates with 1 vote. [15:23:43] <+SteveB> *having [15:23:52] <+SteveB> Is this enough? [15:24:09] it IS a plurality. [15:24:17] <+SteveB> I'm really questioning people's contributions to this project at the moment.. ~ [15:24:22] <+jfs> -> [15:24:26] <+SteveB> jfs ~ [15:24:27] ~ [15:24:32] <+jfs> i think 7 votes is too little to decide anything on~ [15:24:47] -> *SteveB* oopsie, sorry for the interruption [15:24:52] ! I agree~ [15:25:10] <+SteveB> There are 17 members of the Dev forums [15:25:16] <+SteveB> So, 7 out of 17 isn't very good. ~ [15:25:18] <+jfs> -> [15:25:25] <+SteveB> jfs ~ [15:25:39] <+jfs> could we somehow send a private message and/or email to all the members? ~ [15:25:51] -> [15:26:04] <+SteveB> I think there is a way to pm all at once, not sure how though [15:26:07] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [15:26:38] There exist an email list for the project. [15:27:08] <+SteveB> -> [15:27:09] -> [15:27:18] <+jfs> ! you mean mailing list? i'm not member of that... ~ [15:27:18] We can send an email to that, or ask owen/ anyone with some clue about the forum if/how to brodcast PMs.~ [15:27:40] <+SteveB> I think we need a vote where we can see who has voted for who, whilst keeping it private [15:28:07] <+SteveB> To do so, we'd need to elect someone, to recieve all the votes. One of the main heads that we can trust. ~ [15:28:09] <+SteveB> Metalcore ~ [15:28:11] There's some way to PM every one in the developer group, because they've done it before, I don't know how though~ [15:28:24] <+SteveB> Yes, it's been done before about Monti [15:28:24] ! Email lists: http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=73145 ~ [15:28:28] <+SteveB> Hyr did it i think. [15:29:05] <+SteveB> Anyone like/dislike my vote idea? [15:29:06] <+SteveB> ~ [15:29:16] -> [15:29:20] <+SteveB> zu [15:29:22] <+SteveB> u [15:29:24] I suggested that, [15:30:14] but the very drawback of that idea, is that we have no insight of the votings, imo we cant controle that it is fair done.~ [15:30:55] <+SteveB> Well, what about a public vote. Will people not like that? [15:31:10] <+SteveB> I personally don't mind, but other people might. ~ [15:31:16] -> [15:31:23] <+SteveB> Zuu [15:32:07] The problem with a public vote, is that the people that vote in the end, and know what the other as voted are able to [15:32:17] <+jfs> -> [15:32:32] cast his vote on his second best canditade.~ [15:32:45] <+SteveB> jfs ~ [15:32:57] <+jfs> would anyone be able to quickly throw some kind of reasonably safe voting system together in php or otherwise in short time? ~ [15:33:32] <+SteveB> I could add it to EmpireBot, using people's Q auths [15:33:47] -> [15:33:55] -> [15:34:08] <+SteveB> I'd need auth lists or something.. to stop commoners voting ~ [15:34:10] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [15:34:22] For now if we can agree on some one that everyone trusts, thats probably esiest, or [15:34:33] eaven esier to just continue with the poll, [15:34:36] . [15:34:50] <+SteveB> (~?) [15:34:54] But for future, I woul't mind a more [15:35:09] sortifisticated voting system.~ [15:35:29] <+SteveB> Grunt ~ [15:35:31] I believe there's a voting addon available for mediawiki if you wanted to do voting on the wiki. ~ [15:35:41] <+SteveB> -> [15:36:01] <+SteveB> Personally i don't like Mediawiki. (Even though i use it on my website!) [15:36:12] <+SteveB> And i don't trust it to be secure either. [15:36:14] <+SteveB> ~ [15:36:30] <+SteveB> (In terms of users only voting once) ~ [15:36:47] <+SteveB> Anyone else have comments on media Wiki? [15:36:54] -> [15:37:00] <+SteveB> zuu ~ [15:37:22] I agree that it might be difficult to make sure that everyone only votes once, [15:37:42] if you cant restrict the vote to certain members. [15:38:04] -> [15:38:13] Alltroght it is possibel to lock the wiki, so that no acounts can be created by normal users.~ [15:38:33] * Jpl (jpl@adsl-50.23-DynIP.ssp.fi) Quit (Quit: Leaving) [15:38:40] <+SteveB> Grunt ~ [15:38:41] It would probably be easy enough to alter the code to allow only certain people to vote. [15:39:06] I believe the default is to allow accounts older than a certain point with a certain number of edits to vote [15:39:14] but it could just as easily be people with a special flag on their account set. ~ [15:39:48] -> [15:39:51] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [15:40:16] <+SteveB> -> [15:40:25] That might be nice, but for now, why cant we just continue with the poll? [15:41:16] <+SteveB> (Was that a ~?) [15:41:35] ~ [15:41:58] <+SteveB> Well, due to the fact meetings always take place on IRC, and we need someone to code something to get anything to work [15:41:59] ! (sorry) ~ [15:42:05] <+SteveB> I propose: [15:42:22] <+SteveB> We send out messages to the dev group, and try and get all 17 votes (or at least 15) [15:42:45] ______________________________________________________________________- [15:42:46] <+SteveB> Meanwhile, i'll add a voting thing to EmpireBot, that i can give a list of Auths to, which it'll accept a single vote from. [15:42:53] <+SteveB> And then it'll give us results. [15:43:24] <+SteveB> And then that can easily be used for other things down the line. [15:43:31] <+SteveB> What ya think? ~ [15:43:41] -> [15:43:46] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [15:43:48] I like your suggestion. [15:44:10] Votings to the book should be via private meessages thoght.~ [15:44:30] *boot [15:44:31] <+SteveB> Yes. That's how all but one commands are done with EmpireBot :) ~ [15:45:07] <+SteveB> RIght, move on? [15:45:13] ! sure~ [15:45:17] <+SteveB> 5b What to do now? How shall we/the DD group proceed with the DD? [15:45:27] <+SteveB> Well, we kinda answered that already. ~ [15:45:42] <+SteveB> We need some selections before we can do anything. ~ [15:46:08] <+SteveB> 6. Tasks to do in parallel with the DD ~ [15:46:19] <+SteveB> Anything else that can be done now? ~ [15:46:28] -> [15:46:32] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [15:46:39] -> [15:47:03] The thing that (you?) proposed several times. The hokmepage or wiki.~ [15:47:12] <+jfs> -> [15:47:17] <+SteveB> Ok, Homepage needs to be done. ~ [15:47:19] <+SteveB> Metalcore ~ [15:47:29] Multimedia and publicity is always needed. There is, as usual little progress on music and graphics, but that's not too important. more important is a homepage, as he said, and getting more devs. ~ [15:47:34] * Grunt (~grunt@s0106000c413a1c49.cg.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: EOF from client) [15:48:02] <+SteveB> jfs ~ [15:48:26] <+jfs> i suppose people could start working on/hunting+testing eg. graphics and network libraries. also, i think things like user interface will be mostly independant of how the DD is written, so UI discussions can probably also start to some extent ~ [15:49:02] <+SteveB> "on/hunting+testing" ? [15:49:20] <+SteveB> Wait, i think i understand ~ [15:49:59] <+SteveB> Ok, got quite a few things there. I'll add EmpireBot, move on? [15:50:16] <+jfs> ! was meant as "either word on, or hunt down and test, libraries" ~ [15:50:19] <+jfs> work* ~ [15:50:36] <+SteveB> 7. Any other business (AOB) [15:50:42] <+SteveB> -> [15:50:51] <+SteveB> I'll take this time to point at EmpireBot and smile. [15:50:57] <+jfs> -> [15:50:58] -> [15:51:12] <+SteveB> Last meeting, we decided i'd bring him and present him and his features. [15:51:16] <+SteveB> jfs ~ [15:51:53] <+jfs> just thought it would be an idea if people could compile a list of what computer systems they would be able to develop/test code on [15:52:01] <+jfs> this should probably just be done on the forum later~ [15:52:30] <+SteveB> Metalcore ~ [15:52:47] How many factoids have been implemented? I notice basic,important ones like ??transportempire are nonexistant.~ [15:52:59] <+SteveB> Well, one has. [15:53:03] -> [15:53:10] <+SteveB> I only just set it up in this channel 2 minutes before the meeting [15:53:16] <+SteveB> So.. ~ [15:53:19] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [15:53:29] Can we have some order plz, keep each topic separated.~ [15:53:48] <+SteveB> Yes. I'll point at EmpireBot a bit for the moment [15:53:52] <+SteveB> It's features: [15:54:09] <+SteveB> You add topics to be shown to yourself, other users, or in the channel [15:54:20] <+SteveB> People with high enough ranks can add, edit and delete such topics [15:54:42] <+SteveB> I'll add the vote thing and possible meeting controls for logging and agendas [15:55:03] -> [15:55:13] <+SteveB> Furthermore, it doesn't spam the channel unless someone is high enough rank. For instance, none of you can actually make it speak in the channel :) [15:55:15] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [15:55:28] Add a `/msg EmpireBot help` command. [15:55:39] ~ [15:55:42] <+SteveB> Type it. I have. [15:56:28] <+SteveB> It's a bit incomplete, but it is there :) ~ [15:56:30] ! nice~ [15:56:43] -> *EmpireBot* help [15:56:53] <+SteveB> And remember, i'm a nice fellow. So people are free to make suggestions of things for me to fix [15:57:18] <+SteveB> ~ [15:57:38] <+SteveB> Any other comments concerning EmpireBot? [15:58:18] ! nope~ [15:58:30] <+SteveB> Any other AOB? ~ [15:58:48] ! jfs had one.~ [15:59:02] <+SteveB> About systems yes. [15:59:04] <+SteveB> -> [15:59:07] <+jfs> -> [15:59:15] <+SteveB> What systems are there? Windows, Linux, Mac? ~ [15:59:17] <+SteveB> jfs ~ [15:59:31] -> [15:59:34] <+jfs> well, i was thinking of any kind of "weird" setup one might encounter as well [16:00:05] <+jfs> first of all, it would be nice to be able to test on different OS, eg. various versions of windows, linux, bsd [16:00:14] <+jfs> various graphics cards and drivers [16:00:23] <+jfs> also eg. multimonitor setups [16:00:26] <+SteveB> -> [16:00:58] <+jfs> so we might get more varied test possibilities [16:01:20] <+jfs> and if the coders have a better idea of what kind of systems they migth expect, the code might end up more flexible/robust [16:01:20] <+jfs> ~ [16:01:25] <+SteveB> I think it'd be good to find a tool that'll find out all this stuff from the person's computer itself. To avoid user error. ~ [16:01:26] Perhaps you should make a form (not in html, but just an text exaple), that poeple can copy and fill. ~ [16:01:44] ! sorry, to fast~ [16:01:47] <+SteveB> Or that, yes. ~ [16:02:11] -> [16:02:14] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:02:51] You are welcome to try to write a such application that works one every system, and that finds every hidden card [16:02:54] ~ [16:03:07] <+SteveB> Well, i didn't want to write it myself [16:03:08] <+jfs> -> [16:03:19] <+SteveB> I know Electronic Arts use one for Tech Support. ~ [16:03:20] <+SteveB> jfs ~ [16:03:23] <+jfs> i doubt people who don't know their system very well would be good testers anyway~ [16:03:58] <+SteveB> True. To a degree. ~ [16:04:22] -> [16:04:31] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:05:36] Well, windows users could use thier hardware browser, KDE has one, and then there is /proc for other linux users, and duno what Mac has, but most if not all OSes has some way to [16:05:45] find what hardware you have.~ [16:05:59] <+SteveB> Mac's aren't very modable anyway are they? [16:06:06] -> [16:06:13] <+jfs> -> [16:06:13] <+SteveB> So, the model would be the basic info we'd need. ~ [16:06:16] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:06:17] <+jfs> <- [16:06:29] You can add stuff to a mac. (have done that.)~ [16:06:46] -> [16:06:51] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:07:02] Anyway, I think this disscussion is moving of [16:07:11] from the topic.~ [16:07:19] <+SteveB> Ok. Anything else on jfs's idea? ~ [16:07:34] -> [16:07:40] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:08:13] Perhaps add it as a TODO for jfs, to create a template or something for people to fill, or at least start a topic.~ [16:08:25] <+SteveB> Ok. ~ [16:08:44] <+SteveB> I would like to briefly step back to EmpireBot. There was a feature i forgot to mention [16:09:04] <+SteveB> It will actually remember the channel topic. So in times like topic, where Quakenet has forgotten it [16:09:20] <+SteveB> He would tell you. But he doesn't know what it is today unfortunately. [16:09:30] <+SteveB> Now. Anything else? ~ [16:09:42] -> [16:09:45] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:10:02] just thought it would be an idea if people could compile a list of what computer systems they would be able to develop/test code on [16:10:15] sorry, wrong text.. [16:10:27] Right text: [16:10:28] I think that the person who uploads the minutes should also upload a copy of th [16:10:28] e logs. [16:10:41] <+SteveB> Ah the logs. Ok. [16:10:47] ~ [16:10:57] <+SteveB> Well, Metalcore. Remember to upload the logs when you upload the minties :) ~ [16:11:07] -> [16:11:07] heh, ok. ~ [16:11:10] <+SteveB> Mmm minties. ~ [16:11:13] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:11:31] And write what every minuteman should do so.~ [16:11:49] ! in the minutes.~ [16:12:12] <+SteveB> K. ~ [16:12:21] <+SteveB> Anymore things? ~ [16:12:55] <+jfs> not from me~ [16:12:59] <+SteveB> Moving on... [16:13:01] ! not for me~ [16:13:04] <+SteveB> 8. Assigning chairman for next meeting [16:13:04] <+SteveB> 9. Next meeting [16:13:15] <+SteveB> I propose we have the next meeting next week. [16:13:18] -> [16:13:24] <+SteveB> So we can deal with the DD vote as soon as possible. [16:13:26] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:13:39] One week from now, a saturday, 17:30 UTC. ~ [16:14:12] <+SteveB> That's quite early. 1830 BST? ~ [16:14:40] -> [16:14:40] <+SteveB> Maybe we should go for a really early meeting? Mid-afternoon? :D [16:14:46] <+SteveB> Maybe more people will come :/ [16:14:49] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:15:16] That will be 20:30 in poland (remember) [16:15:34] ~ [16:15:46] <+SteveB> It shouldn't be a long meeting [16:15:53] <+SteveB> Not any longer than this anyway. ~ [16:15:54] -> [16:15:57] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:16:09] Say 18:00 UTC then?~ [16:16:21] <+SteveB> Sounds good to me. [16:16:29] <+SteveB> Any problems? [16:16:35] * +SteveB pokes the rest of the channel [16:16:41] !no~ [16:17:10] ! Saturday, 2005-04-09 18:00 UTC~ [16:17:29] <+SteveB> We'll assign a chairman at the start of next meeting. ~ [16:17:38] <+SteveB> Did we miss anything? ~ [16:17:39] -> [16:17:51] Who shall anounce the next meeting? [16:17:54] ~ [16:18:26] <+SteveB> I'll do it for once. ~ [16:18:36] -> [16:18:39] <+SteveB> Zuu ~ [16:18:54] as soon as possibel then.~ [16:19:11] <+SteveB> Ok [16:19:38] <+SteveB> ================== MEETING ENDED =========================